Medan farbror IB gjort en resa bakåt i tiden till New York går Kludden på "hans" möte idag

Reflection Freenote: our topic specifically today is the "illusion" of free will
Reflection Freenote: hello apmel, we are just beginning, and welcome
Apmel Meerson: thx..hello all
Reflection Freenote: our discussion today is not meant to be a rehash of philosophical thoughts on this issue, I might add ;-)
Reflection Freenote: rather, a very pragmatic examination of habit formation vs. free will and the roles which these play in our lives
Reflection Freenote: civilization is a huge clock work, which we are trained to fit into from birth as a clock work, it runs on regularity and predictability
Reflection Freenote: as creatures, we have evolved, to make habits of recurrent patterns of neurological response, irrespective of theoreticaly judgements and considerations
Reflection Freenote: that is, if we have been repeating a sequnce, then it has been keeping us alive and the brain makes it automatic
DagnyT Gabilondo: russian roulette
Reflection Freenote: so modern people have the opportunity to practice their preferences with abandon
Apmel Meerson: unprotected sex
Reflection Freenote: yes, dag, if you use a bullet!! ;-)
DagnyT Gabilondo: smiles
Reflection Freenote: that, apmel is a calculated risk, I think (a lot of people think it is worth it!!)
Apmel Meerson: o:)
Reflection Freenote: because we can practice our preferences so easily they become powerfully conditioned, and so modern people "step out of their box" very rarely which is why we prize that behavior, and often find it so difficult to accomplish
Reflection Freenote: interestingly, if we did not live in civilization, but had a more neolithic lifestyle, we would have to be adapting to nature much more spontaneously on a daily basis
Reflection Freenote: ahhhhh, but for better or worse ;-) here we sit:))
Reflection Freenote: so, how much latitude of choice do we "really" have.
Reflection Freenote: what is freedom really?
Reflection Freenote: we tend to think of it as doing what we want to do. But that is just our highest probability response, so is it really free, or is it robotic
Reflection Freenote: maybe freedom is our ability to do, with tranquility, things that we don't like or want to do?
Reflection Freenote: and maybe that is a skill that has to be practiced?
Reflection Freenote: with that I turn the discussion over to all of you:))


Det blev en trevlig pratstund. Kludden är egotrippad och ger här bara några exempel från den där han själv är aktiv:)

Apmel Meerson: maybe i wasn´t listening Ref..but did you define free in the free will concept?
Reflection Freenote: ap, I have just raised some questions actually. I personally would define free will as one's ability to, with tranquility, do things that are not liked, or desired. And I think this skill does exist for some people.
Apmel Meerson: yes ok..but we are not freed from natural laws:)
Paen Demonia: I don't understand the difference between making a free will decision under stress or tranquility?
Reflection Freenote: I wouild hasten to point out that my definition of free will does not address essentially the determinism, philosophical question, it is just a pragmatic response. A way in which we can cultivate actual freedom, perhaps, even if it *is* an illusion (well after all, everything *is* an illusion if you get right down to it ;-))
Apmel Meerson: i think we have developed free will from the hare´s random jumping in order to get away from the fox
Reflection Freenote: yes, that's interesting apmel
Reflection Freenote: so with adrenaline can come a random jump in some direction. yes, I can see that
Reflection Freenote: so, apmel, I would revise the above adrenaline statement to include this variant, at genuinely high levels of acute distress.:)) mostly we are working at a level of distress that feeds habits though:))
Reflection Freenote: so, for example, on 9/11 or during a Hurricane, people emit radically different and adaptive responses. (that isthey pull together for a change)
Apmel Meerson: when our thoughts are as unpredictable to ourselfes as the harejumps are to the fox we think we have free will
Radrun Rau: Meditation is a way of moulding your thoughts, and form a direction and purpose.
Apmel Meerson: so are drugs